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Twitter Lists; Limitations, bugs, impact, and brilliance

First off, I +love+ the new list feature that's coming to Twitter. Last week more than 1,000 people were randomly added to a beta of the new feature. What does it do? It does a few things (TechCrunch wrote an article about the new feature and has screen shots which show what it looks like):

  1. It lets you put the people you are following into lists. (I have several lists, for instance, one for photographers, another for tech executives, another for my most favorited Twitterers, and another for programmers).
  2. It lets you see a feed for each list. The feed is made up of only the people on that list.
  3. If you are the person who made the list you can delete or add people to the list.
  4. You can block the user of any list.
  5. You can subscribe to any list, which will add it to your home page and other places.
  6. You can later delete any list.
  7. You can later rename any list (that's pretty cool, although renaming does change the URL of the list).
On your home page you'll see a few changes:

  1. You'll see a new "listed" item. That tells you how many lists you have been added to.
  2. You'll see a new "Lists" area on the right side of your page which shows you which lists you've made and which ones you've followed (up to a maximum of 20).
  3. If you click on a list name, you'll see the timeline for just that list and you'll also see "view list page." If you click on that you'll see the people that the list is following and who is following the list. You'll also see you can edit or delete the list there.
I've used this feature extensively now and I've found several limitations:

  1. You can only add 20 lists to one Twitter account.
  2. Each list can only have 500 members.
  3. Your sidebar can only display 20 lists. First it will display your lists, then others but you won't be able to control the order or really anything about the list. I even tried changing the spelling on the lists.
  4. If you click on "listed" on your home page, you'll see a list of the lists that have added you. Unfortunately only the last 20 will be listed and you can't see others. I already have more than 200 lists following me and I can't see most of those.
  5. There is a tab that shows you the lists you follow. However, in my case, it only is showing 39 lists. I know I'm actually following about double that amount already. And of course you can't scroll the list or anything like that. I believe these last two limitations are actually bugs or poor design decisions.
What will the impact be of this new feature?

  1. You'll follow a lot more people. Why? Because you'll find someone who has done a really great list, say, of programmers, and you'll add the whole list. I've already done this a LOT and found that Twitter has gotten way more interesting because of it.
  2. You will spend a lot of time managing lists, at least at first. I went through that over on FriendFeed, which has a similar feature (Twitter's implementation is better, by the way).
  3. I can see a raft of new searching and discovery mechanisms. Already I've been invited to the beta test of a new directory service. Which brings me to the next point.
  4. Directories based on numbers of followers are dead. Yes, Wefollow, I'm looking at you.
  5. Anything to do with numbers of followers is now dead. WHAT KIND OF LISTS you are on will be far more important. Who cares if someone has 145,000 followers if no one will put him on a list because they don't like his Tweet style?
  6. Follow Friday is dead. Lists are FAR superior.
  7. Twitter will have scaling problems almost immediately due to these lists because lots of people will start using Twitter more again.

I'm hitting a variety of bugs, too.

  1. First the technology is very slow. It sometimes takes up to a minute after I click to add someone to a list before it releases the UI and shows that that person has been added to the list (if you visit your "following" list you can click a drop-down menu and then you'll be able to click to add that person to one or more of your lists. Sometimes this is very fast, othertimes it's dreadfully slow).
  2. Sometimes I click to add someone to a list and it doesn't add them. 

While I'm here, I do have one feature request. I'd like to add all the people on someone else's list to mine. For instance, I've found a couple of lists of Rackspace employees already. Why can't I visit those lists and say "add all the list members to one of my own lists?" That would be very useful. Or have a way to add groups of people from your following list instead of forcing us to add people one-by-one. 

Anyway, if you are playing with the new list feature, how do you like it? What bugs are you hitting? Are you hitting any limitations?

Oh, and if you don't like it that I have access to this new feature, sorry, but lets meet after you get it and see if you agree or disagree with me on this.

I say that this is all brilliant because it instantly made Twitter much more usable and interesting again. It will be fun to watch when everyone gets to see this new feature and try it for themselves. I think it'll be VERY popular.

UPDATE: If you have an account that is "list enabled" you can check out my lists on my Twitter account. They are going to need a lot more work, but already you can see the direction I'm heading in with them.

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Comments (90)

Oct 18, 2009
Khuram Malik said...
Ahh ok. At first i thought this was something that wasnt any different to "groups" in something like Tweetdeck or Brizzly, but i hadnt realised these are essentially public sortings, which changes the game altogether. I can really see this feature becoming very powerful and popular for sure. Im sure there'll be some ego maniacs to go with too. Just like everyone wants to a million followers, im sure we'll soon see "get rich quick" schemes for how to be on as many lists as possible.

Great feature though.

Oct 18, 2009
Hugo Romano said...
How do you think it will affect user reputation?
Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Hugo: it will have a DEEP impact on reputation and will leave us all wanting even more. I should say that it won't affect reputation, it will surface it. If you are a great programmer now people will be able to find you and your reputation will be surfaced based on how many great programmers put you on their lists. Same for any topic.
Oct 18, 2009
 said...
Would be great if there was a chance to utilize the work already accomplished in group-building in TweetDeck or Seesmic Desktop...
Oct 18, 2009
Vinko T. said...
Thank you for the clear analysis of Twitter's List feature. I wish I had a chance to try this feature out first hand.

BTW: is there a way for people who do not currently have this feature find out which list(s) they are already on?

Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Vinko: I could look yours up and tell you, but there's no way yet for you to see.
Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Facebook User: there is an API and Twitter has been working with client vendors for months on this feature. I bet we'll see a TON of updates shortly after this feature gets turned on.
Oct 18, 2009
Mitch Lieberman said...
Absolutely agree on the follow friday comment. Is what I did this past week, put two lists by others and that was that. What about notifications? Do you think people should be notified when they are added to a list?

Twitter needs to add the ability to sort ones own followers by some sort of relevancy too. Almost like a keyword, some controlled by the person, some controlled on the user side. For example I might see myself as CRM and SocialCRM, you might tag me as Vermont?

Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Mitch: I hate notifications. I already am on more than 200 lists. So I'm the wrong one to ask about that. :-)
Oct 18, 2009
Ed Richardson said...
Interesting. I haven't been invited by Twitter to trial, so can't comment directly.

I already use several lists in TweetDeck I find them very useful for segmenting particular content. When your Twitter stream becomes anything of reasonable size the amount of content coming through the generic stream becomes daunting.

TweetDeck's lists allowed me to break this content down into subject areas, geographical locations, groups of associates etc.

Having the functionality to share those lists with others or vice versa, access others pre-built lists would be very helpful.

I still see some benefit to #followfriday and the alike. I use the #ff hashtag to specifically thank individuals that may have been very helpful recently and also provided particularly good content recently. They give the opportunity to define why I'm following them on an individual basis, it's more personal and therefore more powerful.

I'd be interested to hear that after all this effort required to create lists, is there any functionality to save the list outside of the Twitter platform (i.e. download a list config. file)?. Not that I don't trust Twitter to store all my work safely, just that . . .

Perhaps Twitter will have new round of list beta testers (is that Twitter first list!?!) that I can squeeze into.

Looking forward to seeing them available to all.

Cheers for the info Robert.

Oct 18, 2009
Kenley Neufeld said...
I've had the same experience with adding people...slow and sometimes takes 2-3 tries to get the list added. It is odd for me to actually be using the Twitter web site since I've never really used the site. What will make this a huge success is the expected API for apps like Tweetie.

Much richer content is going to be the result of lists on Twitter. Finding new people who we respect, etc.

As I begin to add people to my lists, I'm realizing that I can't/shouldn't just add everyone in a particular category. Must get more selective.

I love, love, love that I can add people to a list without following.

Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Ed: the list infrastructure is an API too so developers will be able to build clients that can back up your lists and take them to other systems like TweetDeck or Seesmic. In fact, I expect we'll see new clients very quickly when this feature goes public.
Oct 18, 2009
Laura Bergells said...
Looks like I'm going to have to set aside some Sunday time for setting up some (extremely) helpful Twitter lists!

Other pitfalls of being a "list" pioneer: 1) momentary Sunday time-suck to set up lists + b) the social faux pas of accidentally overlooking someone on a critical list!

Thanks for the post... timely, helpful.

Oct 18, 2009
Ed Richardson said...
Robert: That's good to hear and sensible to be honest. Takes the responsibility away from Twitter too.

I am sure the likes of TweetDeck and Seesmic are already working away at efforts to utilise the new API functionality.

Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Laura: oh, yeah, lots of people will get their feelings hurt by these lists. "How dare so and so leave me off his 'cool friends' list!" I will probably do a post on that too when things come along more.
Oct 18, 2009
Jan Schultink said...
I think the list feature is great:
- People have to commit publicly to the quality of a list
- Democracy will vote up the really good lists to follow
- The end of follower counts
- The end of the suggested user list?
- People can be deleted from lists if Tweet quality drops

In the future: you follow lists that interest you + plus your close friends

Lists could also be made hyper-local: temporarily tap into what people are saying 20 meters away from you using ad-hoc lists?

Oct 18, 2009
Brian said...
Robert - did you detect a method for backing up lists you've created, or subscribed to? Or is this an API driven app someone will need to create?
As we focus our tweet streams around expertise, topics, and reputations it seems it would be a shame to lose that work -- especially as we master lists and become dependant upon the self selected aggregations.
Ever made an error and over-written a db in production (not me of course) and experienced the melancholly and deep sinking heart ache that goes with it?
I know if I put in hours setting up and fine-tuning my tweet-streams, and then lost them (disaggregated?) you could potentially hear a grown man weep like a baby.
Great post my man,

Brian at Rackspace

Oct 18, 2009
Erica Douglass said...
Hi Robert,

I've been invited, too. Unfortunately I have been speaking at a conference all weekend, so I haven't really had a chance to test it out! After reading this, I'll be busy creating lists and blogging about them. I plan to create a couple lists of bloggers in various fields.

I also look forward to "Groups" (now lists) becoming a standard API implementation so they can sync cross-client. YAY for that!

-Erica

Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Brian: I haven't yet seen a way to backup our lists, but I'm very certain there will be one within hours of its release to the public because there's an API and someone will give you a way to slurp it out to something like TweetDeck's groups or Seesmic's groups.
Oct 18, 2009
Brian said...
One last note: What are your thoughts around these lists beginning to fill the void created by the fast collapsing broadcast news media? (My guts still ache over the demise of the Rocky Mountain News).
News lists are nothing new, of course, but the list features seem to capture the best of listserv, self selected content, many to many communication, reputation/merit, all provided centralized and transparent.

Interested in Charlotte Anne's thought here as well. Can/will professional journos leverage into a new model?

Fire up the cluetrain conductor-man,
Brian

Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Brian: some of the more interesting lists I've followed so far are aggregations of professional journalists. I think it changes news brand's relationships with all of us. But I'm not sure exactly how yet. Plus, I also notice that Mashable, TechCrunch, New York Times, and others have put up lists of all their Twitterers (like I have for Rackspace).
Oct 18, 2009
Laura Bergells said...
Using lists to connect non-profits members to each other = helpful for building community.

Not so helpful lists: "My A List Friends, My D List Friends" = ouch, hurt feelings potential.

Oct 18, 2009
Oct 18, 2009
Marsha B said...
I got a beta invite. I love this feature. I won't mind see notifications since I'm a small fry. I want to see who adds me to lists. I love the fact that lists will replace numbers. Who cares about numbers. I want quality people and to be on quality people's lists now. This is going to make it so much easier to find the types people we really want to communicate with.
Oct 18, 2009
Brian said...
So one last question:
Robert, how much would you pay for fully functional, feature rich, bug
free "lists" capabilities? $25 per year?

I 'spect someone at twitter has a number in mind
.
Brian
Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Brian: I would bundle a bunch of features together. I'd pay a lot for an improved Twitter.
Oct 18, 2009
Allen Mireles said...
Hi Robert,

Thanks for the post. Good stuff.

I'm busy building lists and have found it to be a slow process. I'm grateful to have been given the opportunity though and I agree it would be nice to able to add all of the people on someone else's list mine.

Do we know how long the beta test runs and when Twitter will extend this to everyone?

Ack! The pressure!

Oct 18, 2009
Brian said...
Bingo - a twitter business model is coming into focus and beginning to take shape.
Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
Allen: I don't know. I've heard that it's probably going to come within the next week or two, though. RT'ing (another new feature) within six weeks.
Oct 18, 2009
 said...
Brian, do you mean Twitter might be keeping the 20/500 limitation for the general public while charging a "premium" membership to lift those off, among other benefits?

I know I'd pay.
Even though there are no lists for me yet..

Nice summary Robert, keeping an eye on your tweets (for now it's all I can do :D).

Oct 18, 2009
Vin Thomas said...
I am really looking forward to getting this feature. I have been a big fan of Tweetie for Mac, but I don't like that they won't add groups. I am sure that with the dawn of lists on the horizon it will change the way Tweetie will work.

Thanks for the great write up!

Oct 18, 2009
Andrew Mueller said...
Hello Robert,

Great post about Lists Beta. I agree with most everything you say and I too love the list feature. There are a few things that I would like to point out.

Lists make the utility of twitter much greater for the casual user who can identify a few highly curated lists and simply follow the list stream rather than the people. Once Tweetdeck, Seesmic and others integrate lists into their apps this could be done in columns in single streams. In this scenario it make sense that follower growth rates will decline. This may have broad implications for the twitter ecosystem. After all why should I curate a list of "Web Innovators" when Robert Scoble has done it for me!

If this scenario occurs then it will limit the discovery of new people to follow and could result in two classes of twitter citizens - those who are on list that are followed and those are not.

Actually, I think that only a few people will take time to curate numerous lists. Others will simply follow those lists.

Can't wait to see how this rolls out and what he third party app builders do with it.

Thanks again for the excellent evaluation.

@andrewmueller

Oct 18, 2009
gpshead said...
Twitter lists sound similar to Google Reader bundle sharing.

It will be loved.

Oct 18, 2009
clcradiogm said...
"Oh, and if you don't like it that I have access to this new feature, sorry, but lets meet after you get it and see if you agree or disagree with me on this." Uh, agree or disagree with you about what? OK, I will guess: I don't like the fact that I don't have the feature yet - is that what you mean?

Anyway, I doubt that this will kill FF altogether (obviously some of FF's features will die), but it will certainly light their "Release the hounds!" fires sooner than later! I only say this due the obvious scaling problems of Twitter that have not seemed to have plagued FF much in the recent past. IOW, if FF should release any new spanking features that hey may hvae been holding back, I doubt that their servers will hiccup much, compared with when Twitter opens up their lists to the larger Twitterati.

Oct 18, 2009
clcradiogm said...
And as I commented to a tweet of Leo Laporte's earlier, I do think that Twitter's new Lists feature is just Twitter doing 3rd-party application dev "in-house", which is fine, but gives, still, too much control over data parts and paths "at the top of the mountain", as listed in your limitations list.
Oct 18, 2009
EricaJoy said...
Nice writeup Robert.

I've started creating some lists and have hit some bugs as well. For example, I went to one person's page and looked at the lists they were on and was surprised to see a private list there. Seems private should be 100% private but maybe it was a fluke.

I sent the following questions about Lists to Twitter today, hopefully I'll get a response:

1) Do people get notified when they are added to a list?
2) Is there a mechanism for people to remove themselves from lists?
3) Is there a mechanism for people to request to be added to a list?

Oct 18, 2009
clcradiogm said...
And, I want to have the ability to create private lists to follow, too. Something else to consider is that at least one 3rd-party dev, Digsby, has a list feature in their "Groups" system - and I don't see any difference in how you manage them either.
Oct 18, 2009
clcradiogm said...
I think notifications of listings would be needed, too - when added and when dropped. I also thought just now, "What about publicly moderated/voted lists" that one could vie for membership in, nominate members to (or prevent themselves from being nominated or at least decline nominations as they come in), or add to their "following" lists - that might be cool.
The latter may be more for a "Rate My Professor"-style list?
Oct 18, 2009
A change in the SUL should be next. All the elements to make it more user-generated and relevant seem to be there at this point.
Oct 18, 2009
Kenley Neufeld said...
EricaJoy: people do get "notified" if they visit their own Twitter page; it will list all the lists you are included on next to your followers/following area.

clcradiogm: you can create private lists.

Oct 18, 2009
nwjerseyliz said...
I love it! I think, in the long term, it will be more influential that Twitter's Suggested User list which started out with 20 names in February and is a bloated 451 accounts now. Except for a few that you can select individually, if you take some, you're going to get all. Who wants to add 451 accounts to follow sight unseen?

Using lists, I've had problem going to a users profile page & adding them to a list and having to click up to a dozen times before a checkmark appeared. And some people I've added didn't show up later on the list page. Like, I have a list of 100 people and when I looked at the list page, only 60 accounts had actually been added. So, I have to go through and see who was omitted which is a hassle.

I'd also like to be able to scroll through all of the lists a person is on, maybe with a page division. Although I imagine with some big names, they will quickly be on thousands of lists when this gets rolled out, system-wide.

What I've found interesting is the names people give their lists. People I just put on my "Bloggers" list I saw labeled under "Most Influential", "Social Media Gurus", "Rockstars", "Most Important", "People to listen to!" labels. Lots of flattery going on which is ridiculous when you think of the high number of lists most of these people will be on. I think it's better to stick with practical, descriptive names (or quirky, original descriptors) than try to suck up to influential people...who probably haven't even see the list feature yet!

I think the people in the Beta trial definitely have an advantage as I've decided to just follow some people's lists they thoughtfully put together rather than try to duplicate them myself (since you only create 20 lists but you can follow many more than that).

I've also found it useful because there are some Top, Most Followed Twitterers that I felt compelled to follow but it was not a reciprocal relationship, it was just me following them. Now, I've added many of them to a list and felt free to unfollow them since I could see their Tweets without having to follow them. I expect Following numbers to stay the same (as you get exposed to new people) or drop as people move some user accounts from their active Following number to one of their lists.

I just wanted to note that if you have blocked some spammer or nuisance person, they can not add you to their lists, whether they are public or private. This might allay some people worry of being placed on a "Jerks" or "Douchebags" list. If you blocked that user, they can't add you.

Lists have already changed my use of Twitter & I'm eager to see how the majority of Twitter users respond. True to form, it seems like every 3 or 4, Twitter undergoes a change of culture and Fall 2009 will be known for list-making as Spring 2009 was known for the inrush of celebrities.

Oct 18, 2009
eric_andersen said...
FYI your link to your lists is only to your main page; you can actually link directly to your lists with syntax [username]/lists: http://twitter.com/Scobleizer/lists http://twitter.com/eric_andersen/lists
Oct 18, 2009
dcbriccetti said...
Robert, TalkingPuffin 0.72, http://TalkingPuffin.org, will let you subscribe to all or some list members.
Oct 18, 2009
eric_andersen said...
In addition, I'm hoping Twitter will adopt @username/listname syntax as linkable in tweets, this doesn't appear to work now. This is too bad, as then users will be forced to use URL shortening to link to internal Twitter URLs
Oct 18, 2009
EricaJoy said...
@Kenley Neufeld I don't look at Twitter all the time so I'd like to be notified in other ways the moment someone adds me to a list I don't want to be on (e.g. the inevitable hot or not lists, lists focuses on specific body parts, etc).
Oct 18, 2009
balsamiq said...
I see a future when people will try to pay to be on some important list (like yours for instance). I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. How will people know that someone's lists are free of paid "avatar-placement"?
Oct 18, 2009
balsamiq said...
Also, one thing I've noticed (but wasn't obvious in the UI) is that you can add people to your lists even if you don't follow them, just go to their profile page and add them, which I think is nice.
Oct 18, 2009
bloggersblog said...
Ultimately the peeps who are on the most lists is probably going to closely resemble the dreaded SUL.
Oct 18, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
bloggersblog: in my experience that absolutely is NOT true (that these lists will resemble the SUL). But we'll have to wait until this feature gets out into public to authoritatively say that.
Oct 18, 2009
Linsey Planeta said...
The bug of adding someone to a list and having it not take is frustrating. Additionally, I get a kind of creepy feeling like it's a high school clique when creating the list. Anyone else?
Oct 18, 2009
Raffi Asdourian said...
Great insight...thanks for this!
Oct 18, 2009
Twitter_Tips said...
Great rundown as usual Mr. S :)

I think as usual the API will be key here. Third parties can give us the features we're looking for. I haven't begun any list-making yet because it's too unwieldy as is. Tweepml has mentioned to me how they're waiting to jump all over it and I'll probably start making lists first via their service

Oct 18, 2009
SebastienPage said...
Robert, I just wanted to comment on the death of directories such as WeFollow. I don't know if you noticed but wefollow has already updated the way they rank users. Now the be ranked higher for let's say the term "twitter", you have to have a bunch of followers who are also in the same "twitter" category on WeFollow. The limit of this system is of course that everybody has to be on wefollow, which is clearly not the case. I thought it needed precision though.
Oct 18, 2009
Amit Gawande said...
Awesome feature the list is. It will surely change the way we follow twitter.

However just wonder if anyone can add anyone else into lists, isn't that another way for spammers for letting themselves known and spread after all.

Oct 18, 2009
mattlaw said...
Great article! I'm very excited about this new feature. One of the reasons I don't follow more people now is that I barely have time to keep up with my timeline as it is. Lists solves that problem for me.

One thing I have been wondering about is privacy, will users be able to set a blanket switch which prohibits people from adding them to lists, or will they have to go and block themselves out of lists one by one?

And a feature I'd like to see added is I'd love to be able to customize the lists more - for example, there are certain people that I want to see every tweet they make, even @replys they make to people I don't follow or know. I'd love to be able to turn that feature on and off per list, so I could see it on some lists and not others.

This beta is a good start and there is incredible potential here. I can see this becoming feature rich as well, and can't wait for that & API support for my favorite apps.

Oct 18, 2009
Ari Burton said...
Excellent post Robert. I was one of the few selected for Twitter Lists, I love it. It's still raw, but I think Twitter will expand capabilities.
Oct 18, 2009
danielthepoet said...
I'm not sure i'd use lists very much. i avoid friendfeed groups because i know i'll just forget to check them.
Oct 18, 2009
Ari Burton said...
Well it isn't about having to remember anything. Lists just let's you group followers together, so if/when you DO want to see the conversations going on, they are in there.

Also, putting someone IN a list doesn't take them OUT of your general stream.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

Oct 18, 2009
Dennis Jernberg said...
I'm one of those who uses FriendFeed groups, though I rarely post to them (though I'll start posting to the NaNoWriMo group soon). I think Twitter Lists are a brilliant idea, and I'm waiting for lists to be enabled on my own account. One thing I'd like to see is the ability to merge a Twitter list with, say, an existing TweetDeck group.

I can't wait to get lists capability, and I intend to follow others' lists too.

Oct 18, 2009
Mr.Robert provides marvelous insights into many aspects of Twitter as we should be.
Oct 18, 2009
Nice piece. Helpful insights about an ingenious concept. Thanks a lot.
Oct 18, 2009
I like this new lists feature a lot. I didn't knew that it was still in beta, I thought they were released to everyone.

I've noticed one bug. When I create a public list everything is fine, I see the little blue text under my followin telling me which list he/she belongs to. I also see that the list is checked in the drop-down menu.
But when I create a private list, neither the blue text or the checked box appears, although the contact still belongs to a list.
This bugs me a bit. Other than that, lists is a feature I've been waiting for.

Oct 19, 2009
Twillist said...
Robert; we're equally huge on the impact of Lists... so much so, that we're building a web service (Twillist - http://www.twillist.com) to build on top of lists, expand functionality, etc. Thanks for the great thoughts here. And as you run into more limitations, don't hesitate to let us know about 'em, so we come up with ways around ;)
Oct 19, 2009
chrisfizik said...
while the lists feature does improve a number of areas of twitter -- I'm not sure I'm likin the new layer of complexity. Twitter is pretty simple now with the followers scheme. If you have trouble managing thousands of ppl your following, you're not likely reading all their posts anyways, so you shouldn't be following that many! it's crazy! Lists will just let you divide your follows up, and then you'll end up reading one of two of your lists regularly and fully -- effectively making that your true follow list. For the rest, you can just read other miscellaneous ppl's feeds in the public stream, by clicking on @ links in ppl's tweets, etc., without having to have 200 lists, most of which you will never direct attention to.

The vote of confidence one gets from being added to a list isn't far from the vote of confidence you get from being followed in general....and will suffer the same spammy popularity contest fate..which is a part of social2.0 life I guess..hehe

Anyways, good post, just some thoughts here

Oct 19, 2009
Joel Hughes said...
I think this development sounds very interesting and I'd agree that it's probably a clear indicator of where Twitter might be looking to make money.

My only concern is how long it will take Twitter clients to catch up and implement this feature (same goes for upcoming RT changes). I'm a Blackberry user for my sins and prefer to use Twitter on the go.

joel

Oct 19, 2009
returntweet said...
It's an interesting concept. But putting people on lists to separate those worth following and those not worth following because of their lack of expertise, content quality, celebrity status or influence is something to think about. Perhaps social networks have been designed with the most influential in mind first and the herd that follows, second. What that tells me is that if you're not influential, charistmatic, an expert in your niche, etc. you may not be worth following.

Lately I've only been following those who follow me. On my list, everyone is just as important as the top celebrities who don't care much to follow the little guy/gal.

Oct 19, 2009
Robert Scoble said...
returntweet: that's bullshit. Lists are so you can find someone who is interested in the same thing you are. Interested in quilting? Well, find a list that someone made of quilters and start following it. If you don't think that list is complete enough, make your own and add people who are writing great tweets about quilting to it.

Following people back just because they follow you is stupid, superficial, and lame. Plus you'll be following people (and spammers and bots) that aren't very interesting to you.

But I don't really care anymore. The number of followers is NOT important anymore that you have. It's whether or not you are included on lists that are interesting.

Oct 19, 2009
Roberto Kusabbi said...
When is the system going to be rolled out to other users? How are they phasing? Any ideas?
Oct 19, 2009
Ari Burton said...
@ReturnTweet TwitterLists are NOT about segregating or discriminating against certain followers. It is about grouping followers of like interests together to follow thought streams better. Imagine you go into a library and books are on the shelves at random. That is a regular Twitter stream. Go into a library and books are organized by category, that is Twitter Lists. Just because cookbooks are with other cookbooks doesn't mean you are discriminating against the romance section! :P
Oct 19, 2009
Mitch Lieberman said...
As was said much earlier in the comments, and on my own blog, when lists are rolled out, it will represent a snapshot in time. There was a library example used earlier, which is not a bad metaphor. The problem is that you relinquish control of the list to a known, or unknown person. You are also dependent upon that person (curator of the list) to maintain the list.

If there is a simple way to make recommendations (maybe just @reply) but it is something to think about. Additionally, new users will not explore twitter the same way we (up to now) did. Not saying it is better, not saying it is worse - just different.

Oct 19, 2009
Jeff Turner said...
"Just because cookbooks are with other cookbooks doesn't mean you are discriminating against the romance section! " Nicely put, Ari.
Oct 19, 2009
Ari Burton said...
@mjayliebs Thank you for the library compliment. I have a few comments on your reply.
#1. You aren't really relinquishing control of a twitter list to an unknown person, it's the same as if someone, valid or spammer, followed your regular twitter stream.

#2. You CAN make lists private so only you have access to them, just as you can lock your twitter stream.

#3. You are reliant on someone to maintain their twitter list that you follow, yes, but you can simply unfollow that list, or make your own that you maintain.

Twitter lists are far from perfect, or a solution to / for everyone, but it is a significant leap in the right direction for Twitter.

Oct 19, 2009
Ari Burton said...
@respres Well thank you for the quote compliment Sir! :)
""Jeff Turner said...
"Just because cookbooks are with other cookbooks doesn't mean you are discriminating against the romance section! " Nicely put, Ari"
Oct 19, 2009
Andrew Mueller said...
Robert,

Why the strong response to returntweet's comment? It is clear that this is opinion being expressed and opinion is not BS unless it is meant to be manipulative.

Regardless, If you look past the wording to the intention of what returntweet is saying you will notice the point that creating lists may result in a dual class of Twitizen. Those who are on lists of influential people and those who are not. Don't get me wrong I really like the idea of lists and think it will help me and others to better deal with the information overload, but lists may have effects that I may not like such as:

To some extent, may freeze the status quo of power structures within Twitter as they exist today

May give those with influence even more and could change the way twitter is used at a fundamental level

May make it much harder for new users to be discovered which might hinder adoption

Like I said in my earlier comment, I think this is a great post but I also think that your interpretation of the impact may be missing a few points, some of which I noted above.

Eventually people will realize that they need to cultivate their own lists. One reason to do so is that if you follow and rely on someones list, and the creator deletes it - It's gone. Or if they delete someone from the list or add someone you really don't want to follow, then you are subject the change. It is also likely that someone will come out with a web app that will allow you to easily copy other peoples lists and Tweetdeck, Seesmic, and others will make it possible for someone to convert existing groups to twitter lists.

My hope is that Twitter Lists are used by most people as a mechanism to discover new people to follow and that they they actively use the feature to create their own lists. This would certainly make twitter more effective for many. But I think that the lazy and casual user will simply follow existing lists and only a serious few will take the time an effort to cultivate their own, in this scenario power differentials expand.

Oct 19, 2009
Ari Burton said...
@andrewmueller Hey Andrew! Great to see you weighing in on this :) I don't think lists will create elitist lists really. For example, @aplusk (Ashton Kutcher) has 3,847,882 followers, but he himself is only following 255 back. Are the remaining 3,847,627 people "unworthy" or not good enough to follow back? No... he just doesn't have time to sit and return follow millions of followers.

The same holds true with lists. Just because you aren't added to someone's list, doesn't mean you are a second class Twitizen :P

I think the main focus of lists is for YOU to create your OWN list that interests YOU. The ability to share lists is just an ancillary feature.

Oct 19, 2009
Andrew Mueller said...
Ari, I'm not sure that your Ashton Kutcher example has any bearing on lists. It is the way that lists are implemented and that it is easy to follow a list without following the person, and the average users use case scenario that could, and I do say could, result in expanded power differentials.

That said I agree that the "main focus of lists is for YOU to create your OWN list that interests YOU", but I am not sure that this is really how most people will use it. After all tweetdeck, seesmic and others have allowed you to create groups for a long time and I wonder how many actively did this; also, the twitter API didn't allow you to share them.

I think that the ability to share lists is a main feature that changes the way people think about, use, create, and manipulate lists that could have reverberating effects throughout twitter

Oct 19, 2009
Ari Burton said...
@andrewmueller Valid points. In the end, when the dust settles, and all is said and done (wow a 3x cliche lol) the use of Twitter lists will probably be as varied as the people that use Twitter itself.
Oct 19, 2009
DrJeffersnBoggs said...
Robert, Thank you for the great article and analysis on the new Twitter Lists feature. I'm experiencing some of the same bugs that many are (difficulty adding people to lists...) but feel that it will be an boost to Twitter's usefulness.
Oct 19, 2009
KevinHeisler said...
Robert, I hope you have the time to respond to the thoughtful analysis by @andrewmueller about the downside of lists. I don't think anyone disagrees with you that "lists" or recommendations can be beneficial. They're certainly preferable to the SUL as a guide for Twitter newbies, as you pointed out with your hilarious stream of the myriad "unchosen few."

There's no question that lists will benefit the celebrities, micro-celebrities, tech rockstars, cool kids, and "A-list" folks on Twitter: in short, all those who have a media platform that enables them to broadcast to their followers, rather than have conversations.

More online reputations will be solidified than built. Lists are the short form of a positive review without the review. Lists are a thumbs-up or "five-star" rating.

The challenge in a rating system is first discerning the criteria that the list builder has for the thumbs up, and then the motive. Why did the person choose the others on the list? Why were other logical choices excluded? How do he or she know them? Are they doing business together? What are they selling? That's not always transparent in the social graph.

People will vie to get on Twitter lists by any means necessary if there's a perceived economic benefit. The true challenge: a one-to-one conversation with thousands isn't a scalable business model for the non-celebrity.

List building will be outsourced. APIs and technology will foster spam. People will use the lists to promote their own self-interests. Those self-interests may not always be enlightened.

In any scenario, the result will be the further atomization of attention, with Twitter (text) and YouTube (video) functioning as SuperConducting Super Colliders, the particle accelerators of the media universe.

Oct 20, 2009
thw said...
Llsts is really a great way to organize the people you follow,Looking forward to its open to the public !and there is a twitter-clone list you may be interested!http://www.thws.cn/articles/twitter-clones.html
Oct 20, 2009
lisapadilla said...
Ari Burton, also:

The burden really lies on the user who wishes to allow automatic following or not.

Oct 20, 2009
MichelleRafter said...
Great summary of Twitter's new List feature Robert - and thanks, by the way, for favoriting the one I wrote last week on how journalists can use it. The only thing I don't like about Lists is how buggy it is - I can only add people to my lists about half the time, the other half it just hangs and then - nothing. Once again we wait for Twitter's technology to keep up with its users.

Michelle

Oct 21, 2009
Great Post, Robert (& discussion!). This will definitely liven up the party! Integrity of lists will be important (read: people who feel like they have to list ppl so they won't offend). Definitely throws a wrench into the plans of those working on all of those "auto/mass follow" workarounds:)
Oct 22, 2009
Alex Karis said...
IMHO: Well here goes...Not gonna sugar coat this. I feel Lists are a great idea to share with others through segregation the quality people you choose to follow. However with the good also comes the Fallacy that Lists are going to Create. Lists are another form of a popularity contest...Social Media "EGO" gamers haven. Example: Take a look at how many people that have created lists..that put themselves on there own lists...just to boost the numbers of how many lists there on...or better yet Dm'ing people to ask for a list add.(What a joke)

I give it 3 months time... total dilution (accounts being created to start lists..more headaches for twitter corp.) and the lists are worthless from an influence standpoint. The fascination with popularity is comical...What is unfortunate is how many naive people there are out there in social media land thinking that #140conf votes, twittergrader rank, shortyawards etc. are somehow a glorification of how much influence they hold. Transparency will win in the LONGTERM...No ranking website or list will ever tell more about influence than using search and watching your total interaction with your "listeners" not "followers". That being said, Robert is fully engaged! Rant over!

Oct 22, 2009
Andrew Mueller said...
Alex,

Very insightful. I agree that the quantity of lists that someone is on as measure of value is deceptive at best and easily gamed and manipulated. Same for the influence measurement sites and tools. For the latter it would be better and more useful to break influence down to it's constituent parts and grade each on poor fair, good, very good, and excellent rather than rank; and do so for each topical context in which and individual influences.

Still, some people will create lists of great value and those lists will make it easier for people to gain value from their twitter experience. The problem is that most people will be overwhelmed by the sheer number of lists and will likely use the number of people who follow a given list as the measure of the quality of the list itself, where it is more accurately a measure of the popularity of the list creator.

You can see my earlier comments on this post for some more of my thoughts on Lists and Influence.

Andrew Mueller

Oct 24, 2009
Angela Alcorn said...
I seem to be stuck unable to add any more people to lists. It's really annoying - I don't want to have lists half-finished. They're useless that way!

I also noticed a lot of people who weren't on lists after I added them. I saw the tick and then later they just weren't there. What's with that Twitter? How are lists supposed to be reliable if the people I add to it aren't there 5 mins later?

I'd also like to be able to add en-masse from another list.

Gah. Twitter. You give us what we asked for and then you limit it until it's useless!

Oct 24, 2009
So instead of previously managing RSS feeds, now we have to manage Lists. From one nightmare to another, more or less. It's very useful- don't get me wrong, but I foresee challenges ahead in the maintenance cycle of these lists.
That said, do you know if Twitter will have a Widget or RSS for each list one owns? That would be useful.
Oct 24, 2009
jamesdsharp said...
These twitter lists are an amazing idea, great article on the pros, cons and limitations
Oct 28, 2009
fcseh said...
Hi Robert, thanks for your post. I just get the list feature, and created two public lists. **All my tweets** are in both lists by default !?
I did not find any GOOD explanation on the web how to manipulate the lists. Please DM to @fcseh the link to the description. Thanx
Frank
Nov 02, 2009
TiaSparkles said...
I see it being used in 3 ways 1) finding people by category 2) giving credibility 3) popularity contest

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